- arm-netbook - Mailman test

Resending: EOMA68-A20, MD 1.7 severe Power Problems
by Pablo Rath 26 Jul '20

26 Jul '20

Resending without attachement: I am very sorry to inform everyone on this list that I had a severe power problem with my Micro Desktop 1.7. I applied power to the DC Jack and the area right to the jack burned out. (see attached picture). One thing that I noticed today was that UART worked when the card was powered up whilst attached to USB OTG alone (DC Jack on MD not connected)! But according to the wiki this should not work at all because of the Y6280 current control IC set at 1A acting as a diode in this case. When I applied power only to the MD I noticed that UART output was complete garbage (random characters). I don't know if only sometimes or everytime. When on DC power, board in FEL-mode with no card and pressing '2', then connecting USB OTG and booting U-Boot sunxi over FEL everything worked flawlessly. As I said I am very sorry that I screwed up. Luke, do you have any ideas what went wrong? Do you think this +also destroyed the computer card? If the error is on my side (embarassing but still the better +case) I will have to swallow the bitter pill that I screwed up badly. I am still going to cover the costs of computer card and MD so there will not be a financial loss to the project. I am very disappointed as I have made could progress. Had sunxi U-Boot, sunxi 3.4.104 kernel running and booting Debian Stretch rootfs... On the other hand if this is a general problem better we know it now and can take the necessary steps. Pablo ----- End forwarded message -----

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DDR3 RAM Design Rules and Techniques
by Paul Boddie 25 Jul '20

25 Jul '20

Hello, One thing that just came up in another forum is the matter of routing PCB tracks for DDR3 RAM, and this is probably a topic that was encountered by both the Pyra... https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/analyzing-4gb-ram.81687/ https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/is-there-really-a-light-at-the-end… ...and the EOMA68 initiatives. Is there any pertinent documentation describing this exercise in the EOMA68 board design process? Searching for DDR3 on the Rhombus Tech site [*] indicates that some boards were done with guidance (at some level) from the vendors: http://rhombus-tech.net/ingenic/jz4775/news/11jul2014_routing_completed/ http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/a31/news/ Previous discussions of KiCad and Olimex boards, which presumably involved DDR3 routing, can be found via this message: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2019-May/016062.html I ask about this in the context of someone who just made design files available for a board using the Ingenic JZ4780 that they had been working on. Those files are here: https://gitlab.com/igagis/cranberrypi Paul [*] http://rhombus-tech.net/cgi-bin/rhombus/ikiwiki.cgi?P=DDR3

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Current not intel Laptop/UMPC/Handheld Options
by Alexander Ross 25 Jul '20

25 Jul '20

Been wondering if theres any new products from the last say 2years? As i’ve not kept up with whats new else where. I know pyra is progressing and dare i say, nearly ready. For a laptop/umpc the more ram the better but a netbook size keyboard thats easy for large adult hands to type on. when i was a teenager i think keyboards like GPD pocket 1 where not so hard to type on but the pocket came at a time when i was at the end of teenage years and had grow more/fully and now i find it it bit awkward to type on, unlike my 10inch asus netboot. Any fav chrome books to librate? new handheld computers?, including intel cpus out of curiosity. like pyra, smaller or a bit bigger. or heck large laptops but not intel or amd? I do know of power cpu laptop projects. https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/forums/pyra-news.250/

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openpower virtual coffee
by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 23 Jul '20

23 Jul '20

https://openpowerfoundation.org/openpower-virtual-coffee-calls/ in 2 hours. conference call dial-in numbers at the above web page (which do not involve running non-free proprietary software to attend) these are an open informal chat, not recorded, no "agenda". topics have been thoroughly eclectic and enjoyable. l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

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2.7.4 preproduction sample, 1.7 MD, Questions
by Pablo Rath 22 Jul '20

22 Jul '20

I have recieved an EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 preproduction computer card and the 1.7 micro desktop (MD) last week. Just for clarification these boards are nothing new and have been discussed on this mailing list. If some of you already have their preproduction boards ready, I would appreciate any help, hints and suggestions to help me getting started. Altough I have some experience with handling arm-boards I am now afraid to do something **stupid** and break/fry the boards. After some digging in the list-archives I found this thread ([1]) where Richard and Luke discuss how to connect the bare computer card with the bare micro desktop. I have many questions: 1. Connecting computer card and micro desktop: I am aware of the photos attached to [2]. Does the mentioned video exist? Richard, did you send photos to Luke? (If yes, can I have them?) Luke, do you want me to send you photos too before apllying power? 2. PSU for micro desktop: According to the mentioned thread ([1]): "5.5mm jack with a 2.1mm centre hole, middle is +ve (aka "pin positive")", "Anywhere between 7 and 21v is fine, minimum 1A, 1 5A is better" So I searched for a DC PSU in my household and read Wikipedia where it is mentioned that OD 5.5 mm / ID 2.1 mm is common on guitar effect pedals but my multi guitar effect pedal PSU did not fit (ID too small). Finally I found a matching DC PSU from a low volatage guitar amp. It says O / P: DC 15V, 2A and a symbol (positive polarity): L. P. S. - -(.- + So I think this should be good to go. Can anyone please confirm. Thank you. Should we document this somewhere on rhombus-tech.net? 3. Soldering iron ready: I have my soldering iron ready. Richard, did you solder UART pins to the micro desktop ([3])? 4. SD-card ready / U-Boot Tried to compile u-boot-sunxi [4] and make exits with "System not configured". So Luke, what did you use as config or has something changed over the years? I also tried mainline U-Boot but could not find "EOMA68-A20-foo_defconfig" and "sun7i-eoma68-a20-foo.dts". What kind of defconfig and *.dts was used for the mainline U-Boot demos? My search of the mailing list archives and rhombus-tech was not futile. I could only dig up an old thread from 2014 where wookey was "assigned" to work on a minimal dts/dtb. 5. Git, notes and documentation Finally I am wondering where to put my notes. A subpage on rhombus-tech seems like a good idea good to me and indicates a work in progress in contrast to the various wikis out there. Where do you want me to push my work in progress git branches if I manage to hack something useful together? Pablo References: [1] http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2019-July/016149.html [2] http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2019-July/016154.html [3] http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/attachments/20190722/914a32… [4] http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/a20/boot/

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EOMA68 Computing Devices Update: Command Not Found
by Pičugins Arsenijs 07 Jul '20

07 Jul '20

https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/command-not-found Note on the 'lsusb' thing: I personally like the 'dmesg -Hw &' command, it stays in the background and prints the dmesg info in realtime - in particular, letting you see detailed data about newly-connected devices.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] https://slashdot.org/story/20/06/23/1548205/amazon-unveils-2-billion-fund-to-invest-in-startups-building-sustainable-technology
by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 23 Jun '20

23 Jun '20

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, Yehowshua <yimmanuel3(a)gatech.edu> wrote: > Sorry - meant to say I **just reached out. As in I sent them an email very cool. here, i am tempted to suggest riding on EOMA68 (and the much smaller miniature version, EOMA50) and that LibreSOC simply be put into Card form as part of a *range* of eco-conscious products. the reason for that is that the long-term environmental justification and e-waste savings for EOMA-compliant products is pretty clear cut and well understood, and the cost savings and benefits for endusers are also clear and easy to understand. http://rhombus-tech.net/whitepapers/ecocomputing_07sep2015/ LibreSOC *on its own* is just one component (a tiny one) that is below 5 percent of the BOM of any given eco-conscious product, and, in addition, LibreSOC processors can equally be used in eco-oblivious products. therefore as a minority component it has very little actual reduction in e-waste per-se.... *unless included in eco-conscious products*. and that's where the EOMA strategy comes in. l. (note: EOMA50 because it is based on re-use of 3.3mm CompactFlash Cards is much smaller and can fit into smartphones. EOMA68 which is creditcard size is just that little bit too big) -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

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MNT Reform Campaign
by Paul Boddie 14 May '20

14 May '20

Hello, It got mentioned about two-and-a-half years ago on this list, but the MNT Reform campaign has finally begun: https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform Of potential relevance to those following EOMA68-related efforts might be various resources that the MNT Reform effort has made available: https://source.mntmn.com/MNT/reform Things like the PCB layouts, microcontroller firmware and case designs are published, although people have previously noted that Autodesk Fusion isn't a particularly libre-friendly format for the case designs. One could envisage adaptations of this for EOMA68-related purposes or something with similar objectives. Certainly, user-upgradeable functionality via an externally accessible PCMCIA-style slot (or similar, rather than the internal SO-DIMM slot) would surely be worthwhile exploring. Paul

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Re: [Arm-netbook] [Project question: EOMA68 Computing Devices] 1) battery replacements?
by lkcl . 09 Apr '20

09 Apr '20

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:23 PM Crowd Supply <project-questions(a)crowdsupply.com> wrote: > > andrew.comly(a)protonmail.com submitted a question about your project, "EOMA68 > Computing Devices": > > battery replacements? > suppossing i buy this eOMA68 PFY Laptop Housing Kit for Computer Card along > with the Libre Tea Computer Card and use along with my , and use it everyday > for a few years. Then, as other netbook/laptop/tablet/android like things the > lithium battery dies. Do I have to buy a new kit? Why isn't the battery > replacement available on https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop? > Where can one buy a replacement to the battery? hi andrew, it's a good question. i'm extremely busy at the moment, i'm ccing you to the list, which you can search where this was last discussed (a long while ago) and also where people will help. if you check the schematics and PDFs which you can find via the website, you'll find the battery part number and manufacturer. http://rhombus-tech.net/crowdsupply/ you do not need my permission or for me to be the "sole location from which that part is obtained". *however*... the supplier *may* require a MOQ of say QTY 100, and, as it has been a long time, may not respond at all (particularly the way things are now, world-wide). if you contacted them and say "i demand QTY 1" they may just get annoyed enough (being a wholesaler) so that *nobody* from Europe gets batteries in addition: the full CAD files are available. if you get really stuck, you can source your own battery. that's the whole point of the whole exercise. and if _you_ can't do it, you can contact the mailing list and find someone who can help you. best, l.

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Deja vu
by David Niklas 26 Mar '20

26 Mar '20

Hi luke, Linus (not Torvalds), mentions every project but yours when discussing this "lap dock", a laptop without internals to which you dock a device, such as a phone, or raspberry PI. It's known as the Nextdock2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIJAEcOL6sI It never ceases to amaze me how many copies of your project I come upon online. I almost think it is a great idea. :D Sincerely, David

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EU directive on "right to repair"
by Boris BARBOUR 12 Mar '20

12 Mar '20

Subscribers of this list may find this of interest: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/11/eu-brings-in-right-to-repair-…

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How about an opensource nuclear reactor?
by David Niklas 11 Mar '20

11 Mar '20

Dear luke, Such a project might not be ligament (I'm not a physicist), but people seem to be taking it seriously. As of this writing 2 of the files are still missing "PRIMARY LOOP" and "STEAM TURBINE". https://www.open-100.com/ David

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$ available: python programmers needed on LibreSOC
by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 05 Mar '20

05 Mar '20

hi folks i need some help with the chip layout, it would particularly well suit a student or someone needing part time income. the actual layout is quite straightfoward to do, if you have ever done PCB Layout it is pretty much exactly that... except it is done as a *python* program. you call a *function* to place an adder block, rather than use a GUI, and then view the results *in* a GUI in order to review them. here is one of the experiments, which will need significant tidying up: https://git.libre-riscv.org/?p=soclayout.git;a=blob;f=experiments5/doAlu16.… it is however "functional" and demonstrates the principle of routing smaller blocks then placing them and routing the larger block. this hierarchy needs to be about 2 maybe 3 levels deep, around 100 "blocks" which will need careful discussion. no *actual* "hardware" experience is required, it is simply "call this function to put stuff here, call the routing function, save the file, move on to the next block". anyone interested or know anyone who might be, do get in touch or pass this on to them. thx! l. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

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Could you explain the details of the 3D mesa driver you need?
by David Niklas 05 Mar '20

05 Mar '20

Dear luke, I've been very curious about this, but I've waited until you were stuck in some place before asking so as not to busy you. I'm not arrogant enough to say I'll create the 3D mesa driver or even go beyond theorizing, but I'm very eager to learn. 1. How do we know when it works? Is there HW or an emulator system we can use? 2. How do we know it's fast enough? What do we benchmark it with? 3. What exact APIs do you want implemented? 4. Do you want it in assembly with C and/or C++ bindings or in one or both of C/C++? 5. Are there any special assembly instructions that this will need? If there's anything else you think would be useful, do tell. Thanks, David

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Is everything okay?
by zap 02 Mar '20

02 Mar '20

haven't seen updates for a while and I wondered if its still being released, the eoma68 laptop. :/ I would appreciate some updates you know. If its okay. Sorry, if this sounds demanding, I am sure your running into your share of barriers.

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EOMA68 Computing Devices Update: Measurements and a Hypothesis
by Paul Boddie 24 Jan '20

24 Jan '20

Hello again, I saw the latest update when it was issued a few days ago, with these details being particularly important: "PCBs are etched with acid, and when the tracks or pads are particularly close together (such as with BGA balls), not enough acid gets in to eat away the copper, and (in a very indirect way) the BGA pads end up being far larger than they should be. This, in turn, means that when the IC is put on the PCB and heated up, the BGA balls (which are made of solder) will spread out much farther, and potentially even spread so far that they contact each other and short out." https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/measurements-and-a… >From what it says, it rather sounds like same (or a similar) problem is being encountered as the one which happened with the Ingenic JZ4775 boards: "When the first 6 samples were done, only one was found to be working: for some reason the DDR3 BGA solder balls had spread and caused short circuits. One of the samples was still with the factory, and that too was found to have shorts. Mike has been extremely helpful, and this is the first time that he's been involved with BGA, where his uncle's factory has been the one that assembled the samples." http://rhombus-tech.net/ingenic/jz4775/news/EOMA68-jz4775_XRay_Photos/ At that point in time, I don't remember any more news about resolving the matter, and with the campaign being finalised the priority was no longer to get these boards working. But perhaps one of these situations informs the other, or maybe they inform each other somehow. Thanks in any case for keeping us updated! Paul

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about Risc-V and Power,
by zap 04 Jan '20

04 Jan '20

Isn't Risc-V supposedly supposed to be more secure and isn't open power based on the old risc? I am just wondering, if the level of evils risc-v has done, justifies abandoning usage of it when you could just as easily do some risc-v processors with or without their help and moreover, power, doesn't it require an immense, even crazy amount of watts? I guess my point is, they use more battery power than intel even. And intel is bad enough. Supposedly though I thought anyone could make risc-v processors as long as they dont use the trademarks. That being said, I noticed you guys have been quiet for a while. I hope you guys are doing well. :) I also hope you can reach your goal, who knows, maybe you can do twice what you thought someday with even 1W used only while being run. If I am misunderstanding something, feel free to let me know, I just think making a line of Risc-V based processor is the way. Libre of course, but yeah... and yes I saw your update.

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Libre RISC-V -- I mean OpenPower M-Class GPU update
by David Niklas 03 Jan '20

03 Jan '20

Not that I haven't complained about RISC-V's seeming, now proven, lack of openness from the beginning, but did you ever find out why they restricted access to people with UC Berkeley associations? It can't be: the license, newbie complains, IP theft concerns, etc., I give up. I would have asked them point blank, myself and put it in the update. It's counter productive to their stated goals. Thanks, David

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Re: [Arm-netbook] [Libre-silicon-devel] [OT only slightly] STEAM Camp OpenSourceEcology 22jan2020 for 9 days
by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 31 Dec '19

31 Dec '19

(removing lots of unnecessary ccs, particularly the FOSDEM visitor list) On 12/31/19, Marcin Jakubowski <marcin(a)opensourceecology.org> wrote: > Luke, any thoughts on you stepping up and coordinating the maskless stepper > module of this crazy evolution? as we (privately) discussed yesterday, there are 4 levels of NDAs: HDL tools, VLSI tools, Cell Libraries and Foudries. i'm waaay overloaded by dealing with level 1 heavily and interacting with people at level 2 and 3. david and the libre-silicon team are dealing with level *4* heavily, level 3 in a big way, and interacting with people at levels 2 and 1. they're the best people for this. l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] [OT only slightly] STEAM Camp OpenSourceEcology 22jan2020 for 9 days
by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 31 Dec '19

31 Dec '19

guuuys i _did_ say don't crosspost. did i say don't crosspost? i did say, "don't crosspost". armnetbooks is ok because it's such a weirdly eclectic and topic-tolerant list. fosdem mailing list for visitors? mmmm... no. l. On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, pavel(a)noa-labs.com <pavel(a)noa-labs.com> wrote: > Are 1um masks that expensive (compared to the rest of setup)? Or is it has > more to do with turnaround times? > > Can you share details of a light source and resist? One important thing > will be to pick light source that will not burn the LCD matrix, and will > not be absorbed by the glass much. Making a custom made LCD with special > materials might not be that cheaper that sticking with masks for the > beginning. > > It will be truly great if one can just replace the mask with LCD with no > extra work > > Sent from my Huawei Mobile > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Libre-silicon-devel] [OT only slightly] STEAM Camp > OpenSourceEcology 22jan2020 for 9 days > From: David Lanzendörfer > To: Libre-RISCV General Development ,Linux on small ARM machines , > Libresilicon-developers@list.libresilicon.com,fosdem@lists.fosdem.org, > libresilicon-developers(a)list.libresilicon.com > CC: Alasdair G Kergon ,Marcin Jakubowski > > > Hi > My idea was to use an LCD plus a lens system in order to build a mask less > stepper unit for manufacturing semiconductors. > This way the costs for the mask sets would fall away and you would suddenly > be able to provide something like a pooling service for semiconductors. > > What do you think? > > Something worth combining your brain power over in those said 9 days? > > Cheers > -lev > > On Tuesday, 31 December 2019 4:42:10 PM HKT Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > apologies for the cross-list post, the topic is very likely to be of > direct > > or indirect interest, please do share elsewhere, however for questions > > please do reach out directly to Marcin from OSE rather than crosspost > > replies! > > > > the OpenSourceEcology Project is running a hands-on real-time > collaboration > > and training course for 9 days that happens to have one of its camps in > > Ghent, Belgium, only around an hour by train away from FOSDEM and running > > up to overlap with FOSDEM only on its last 2 days, Feb 1st and 2nd, 2020. > > > > https://www.opensourceecology.org/steam-camp-january-2020/ > > > > Marcin's Ted Talk is here: > > https://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski_open_ > sourced_blueprints_for_civi > > lization?language=en > > > > it is the beginning of a practical real-world bootstrap process for a > > modern civilisation and actually uses and puts into use everything that > we > > love about FOSS and FOSH. > > > > participants will get to actually *make* a 3D Printer, a CNC milling > > machine, then use those to fabricate an Arduino PCB which... you get the > > idea. a battery operated welder will also be one of the hands-on > projects. > > > > Alasdair, an idea just occurred to me: can we discuss privately, they are > > doing "remote" collaboration: is there room / time for OSE to book a > > workshop by remote link, for two reasons: one in case FOSDEM attendees > are > > interested to see what is going on, but secondly, if anyone who attends > > STEAM would like to keep in touch whilst attending FOSDEM? Can we discuss > > off-list(s)? > > > > best, > > > > l. > _______________________________________________ > Libresilicon-developers mailing list > Libresilicon-developers(a)list.libresilicon.com > https://list.libresilicon.com/mailman/listinfo/libresilicon-developers > > -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

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[OT only slightly] STEAM Camp OpenSourceEcology 22jan2020 for 9 days
by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 31 Dec '19

31 Dec '19

apologies for the cross-list post, the topic is very likely to be of direct or indirect interest, please do share elsewhere, however for questions please do reach out directly to Marcin from OSE rather than crosspost replies! the OpenSourceEcology Project is running a hands-on real-time collaboration and training course for 9 days that happens to have one of its camps in Ghent, Belgium, only around an hour by train away from FOSDEM and running up to overlap with FOSDEM only on its last 2 days, Feb 1st and 2nd, 2020. https://www.opensourceecology.org/steam-camp-january-2020/ Marcin's Ted Talk is here: https://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski_open_sourced_blueprints_for_civ… it is the beginning of a practical real-world bootstrap process for a modern civilisation and actually uses and puts into use everything that we love about FOSS and FOSH. participants will get to actually *make* a 3D Printer, a CNC milling machine, then use those to fabricate an Arduino PCB which... you get the idea. a battery operated welder will also be one of the hands-on projects. Alasdair, an idea just occurred to me: can we discuss privately, they are doing "remote" collaboration: is there room / time for OSE to book a workshop by remote link, for two reasons: one in case FOSDEM attendees are interested to see what is going on, but secondly, if anyone who attends STEAM would like to keep in touch whilst attending FOSDEM? Can we discuss off-list(s)? best, l. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

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Once upon a time you suggested building an opensource router
by David Niklas 29 Dec '19

29 Dec '19

Hi luke, I don't think that you created one because it would have not been capable of 1000Mb ethernet, though most people in the US have 100Mb or less internet. The company friendly elec has decided to do so: https://www.friendlyarm.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=274 A brief overview: H3/H5 powered 512MB RAM. Advertised as gigabit capable, but not actually able to do this with just TX: 230Mbps and RX 334Mbps on the second port (the first runs at almost the correct speed). The minimal config without wall brick PSU and PSU cable (USB) goes for $19.99. Thought you would be interested, David

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Dear luke, what do you think of North American PCB fabs?
by David Niklas 13 Dec '19

13 Dec '19

Hi luke, Today I got an email from allaboutcircuits and it was not an article (what I subscribed for), but an advertisement for a "deal" that Advanced Circuits (www.4pcb.com) was running. I don't have a thing to make, but thought of you and wondered if such companies really do give good deals and are nice to work with. They advertise "free" software that's not GPL so I'm unimpressed but other prospective customers would be. The "deal" was 50% off fist and second orders up to $250 and for businesses, up to $500 off PCB orders with a promo-code (Of course, nothing is "free" and they'll have to make it back somehow). You see, at some point in time (I'm guessing 2+ years at least), I'm going to have to not roll my own and instead use a real PCB fab so I'm keeping my eyes open. Thanks, David

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crowdsupply update 27sep2019 power regulators
by Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 08 Nov '19

08 Nov '19

https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/faulty-power-regul… -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

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OT: Most of China's (water) pipe made from PVC with lead mixed in!
by Alexander Ross 03 Nov '19

03 Nov '19

Off Topic https://web.archive.org/web/20130911233635/http://www.plasticsnews.com/arti… oh no, most of lukes water is from pvc pipes that have lead mixed in them :(. oh dear... even in the uk there a fair bit of lead pvc water pipe i think it was saying... urrgh eek... been reading up about Nitrile rubber + Polyvinyl chloride foam on wikipedia, used for cheap car sound damping. one link lead to another, to pvc.... to plastic water pipe lead contamination.... bad enough old pipes made from lead metel now with limescale internal coating unless the wrong water is used it that gets dissolved like in flint, usa... urrgh. would have thought they would not be stupid to repeat the same mistake in plastic pipes! then these the leaking from plastics and gassing... i dont i will be buying cheap nitrile rubber + Polyvinyl chloride foam for car sound damping, ill get the more ££ butyl rubber visco elastic polymer if thats any better health wise....? well audio people prefer it.

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